Today on the News here........

[Horus]

@MD - I read what Horus wrote but honestly never associated at all anything he said as being directed at or related to you.

And I can confirm that it was not the case and my rant was more of a summation of my views on religion in general. Today’s zealots just happen to be the adherents of Islam, before that they came from other denominations with the first to actually bear that name came from within the Jewish religious community. Unfortunately in that particular reply we see the typical reaction of making the person who makes the comments into something they are not. Our recently departed Stan from the Blue side was a past master at that game, make any comment on ethnicity or the likes and he would instantly brand you as a racist regardless of how true that actually was, or on how little experience of the subject he had in comparison to that of the person making the original post, it is a good way to stifle debate and is the last refuge of scoundrels IMO. In fact I rarely address any reply to one person and usually talk in the broader sense unless it happens to be something pertinent to them in particular. In conclusion I would happily take tea and cakes or even a glass of beer or wine with anyone, but don’t expect me to put down my bacon sandwich or not to challenge your religious beliefs if it came up in the conversation.

[Mad Dilys]

Fair enough Horus, I hope to take you up on a get together one day. I think we have a surprising amount in common.

I used to breed free range organically fed pigs - they are one of my favourite animals. I had 108 including piglets at one time. Properly looked after they are delightful, mine went in the river every day and always used the same place as their toilet........ but they will eat the most disgusting decayed garbage, nature's cleaner uppers, and that's why I wouldn't eat them. But if you or anyone else wants to eat bacon or pork in front of me, that's your choice and doesn't worry me at all. Each to their own.

PS My daughter is into green juices - UGH! Now that does put me off my own food.

[Robbo70]

H i think if you ever met MD you would be pleasantly suprised. Actually, i would love to meet up with you to meet Omar too one day. They are both quite similar in their attitude to their religion. I didnt read your rant as a personal affront to her or any other individual muslim either, but sadly now, with all religions and beliefs, no matter which one people follow, critisism causes offence. I do wonder if religion right accross the board were banned, what would people fight over next

[Horus]

I do wonder if religion right across the board were banned, what would people fight over next

I look at it the other way around Robbo, I reckon it would be one LESS thing we could fight over
To my mind almost every conflict comes down to religion at some point with one version wanting to dominate the other, the best move the human race could do is to ban this cult of worship. Why people cannot just accept that they are the result of evolution and as such are just the current 'top dog' in the evolutionary chain is beyond me. Why does anyone feel the need to make themselves inferior to some imaginary being, to bow down before them, to prostrate themselves and generally make this imaginary being responsible for whatever they do in life. Leaders and sheep, the leaders make up the story and prosper by it and the sheep follow, one only has to observe some of the modern day Evangelist churches in America to see this in action. The man at the top is making mega bucks for his church and of course himself while his ‘flock’ (very aptly named) pour their money into his vision of what his god has told him. They are no different from the priests of Amun at Thebes living off the donations of the masses and getting rich and powerful, nice scam if you can keep it going.

[Robbo70]

Money and business would still cause wars, but my old matra has always been... you dont see too many athiests fighting over their imaginary friends. In a round about way, my point was, that religion is the cause of so many conflicts that there would less death, angst and poverty without it.

Last night there was an advert for the dying kiddies in africa and omar commented that they need to use protection and stop having kids. I had to point out, the high volume of catholics there cannot use protection because the church forbids it. Again religion coming before common sense and humanity

[Horus]

At least Omar can see the real reasons behind their plight, ergo .... religion

[Robbo70]

He maintains everyone is following the same god with a few variations in who followed who and said what and when. While he is following life getting ready for a great afterlife, i am enjoying a great 'now' life as i believe this is it.

[Horus]

While he is following life getting ready for a great afterlife, i am enjoying a great 'now' life as i believe this is it.

Right on, there is no second time around this is all you get and if I am wrong, well what a pleasant surprise that will be.

[LovelyLadyLux]

but sadly now, with all religions and beliefs, no matter which one people follow, critisism causes offence.

Robbo said this and my point to the discussion is that nowadays IMO many people are going out of their way to LOOK for things that offend them.

Being offended seems to be a new right. The right to be offended about anything and everything seems to be what many many many people are looking for. It gives them a chance to splutter and spout and point out how others have done them wrong even though the 'wrong' they define is so slight nobody else can see it. It is like a new weird way to victimize yourself and to garner sympathy (and hopefully $$) from others.

OMG you've been wronged because you've been offended!

Has nobody heard of tolerance? Has nobody heard of being so secure in their own education/knowledge/research/beliefs/thoughts/practices that it doesn't matter what others say?

If your belief or religion has been thoroughly thought out and you're secure in whatever it is you are believing in be it religion or politics or philosophy or whatever then how can you be personally offended just because somebody verbalizes a contrary point of view?

[Mad Dilys]

I agree LLL and it cuts both ways. I often hear those who have no religion getting very vexed by those who do. I mean really angry and exasperated.

Personally I think religion is a useful label to hang onto a lot of "causes".

I would go so far as to say that there are many countries claiming to be of one religion or another who have nothing in common with the tenets of that belief - and I include communism because the effect on the general population is the same.

[Ruby Slippers]

I have never hidden my beliefs on religion to anyone, but I do respect others beliefs. However, I can totally see the reason behind MD's post. In fact, I was getting ready to post a protest on her behalf (unknown to her, I might add) on the amount of insults that have been thrown around on the site, on the subject of Islam! I honestly couldn't figure out whether how many of the posters didn't either know or care that one of our most respected posters was in fact a Muslima. Now that it has been made clear, perhaps we could try to have more tolerant and polite postings, please?

[Horus]

I am sorry RS but you are playing the ‘religion’ card and no one least of all me was having a go at MD’s religion per see. However I refuse to be shackled by your own protests of being offended on someone else’s behalf, if you have beliefs in anything then be prepared to have them challenged. Just because MD and maybe yourself? (and I don’t know or really care) Follow the Islamic faith that does not make the subject taboo as far as I am concerned and if you or MD wish to take offence, then you are doing so purely for your own reasons. I made my views clear on all religions from Christianity to Judaism and if Islam happens to be included in that criticism then tough. I will not and never will allow myself to be censored by any religion regardless of where it comes from, in fact you are displaying the very attitude of religion and Islam in particular that I despise the most and that is to attempt to shut up anyone who has the temerity to question it. I do not (or rarely) post on the Blue side, but I find myself having the same reaction towards ST’s Catholicism and archaic rituals as I do towards MD’s Islam in thinking both are backward, so sorry but you are wrong, it is not aimed at MD it is a critique of religion in general, so if that subject upsets you or MD then just stay out of the debate. From day one on these forums I have always opposed censorship in any form where topics are concerned, I draw the line at downright insults or abuse, but peoples sensibilities no, if they can’t take the criticism or views of others who don’t share their personal beliefs then they are in the wrong place to start with.

For the reasons stated above I will not lock this topic as that would be pandering to your censorship request on religious grounds, however I shall not post further as I have better things to do than to defend my right to speak freely on any subject I please.

[LovelyLadyLux]

I feel we're all free to say anything we want to say about anything however I too would draw the line at personal pointed insults.

All the PC stuff is only geared to stifle free speech and it is this FREEDOM to say what is on our minds that is the PRIZE.

I absolutely abhorred in my office that I couldn't say "Merry Christmas" because I MIGHT be offending somebody. WHO this person was could never to identified then we couldn't call an evergreen tree a CHRISTMAS tree because it MIGHT offend somebody and on and on........Problem is once censorship starts it never stops

And I truly didn't see H comments as having anything to do with MD. Nothing at all. Horus like me is usually talking generally on a topic and NEVER at a specific person (and if I am talking to somebody specifically I usually say so)

[Robbo70]

I am firmly in the live and let live camp. I think its lovely that people have a belief that gives them hope, guidance etc but i just dont have that. I live for each day, try and be a nice person and I answer to myself at the end of the day if i do something wrong.

RS are you being offended on behalf of someone else? I am sure MD would be more saddened than offended by the overall dislike of Islam round here. In fairness, many of us have voiced an overall dislike of religion full stop, not just that one. Unfortunately right now, its the radical pretend muslims who are the cause of the dislike, and MD was quite right in an observation that feeding fear is a great way to further the hatred. My contempt for ALL religion stems back 30 years so its not just an Islamic issue for me.

Disclaimer: I do not have religion, and anything i discuss is not aimed at one particular person or religion. My dislike covers pretty much all of them. ( I find Buddhists and their followings the least contemptible of them, mainly due to their compassion to animals! They still have grey areas i don't agree with though)

[Mad Dilys]

I tried to make clear how I felt, and obviously failed.

One last try.

No, I think enough fuel has been put on this fire.

But .......

If someone, in the future should make a remark on this forum to the effect that what I had written they not only disagreed with but were sad, hurt, annoyed, mightily irritated, or shocked that I had the temerity to make a comment for which I was unqualified to express an opinion ..........then I should like to make a disclaimer in advance that it is never my intention to be anything other than polite and respectful of others and their beliefs - and always has been.

I wish Peace and a long life to you all.

[Grandad]

I would like to see a line drawn under this discussion. The thread started with 3 'Arab looking' people being reported to RCMP for taking pictures in a Mall. LLL now tells us that RCMP will apologise to the people in question.

Two big mistakes here IMO. One, that the people were described as Arab looking, if they were three white males taking photographs would they also have been reported. If not then this is a rascist issue.
Two, why are the RCMP apologising for doing their job. My suspicion is because THEY WERE Arab looking people and RCMP don't want to rock the boat and be seen as rascist.

The only good thing about this story is that somebody was alert enough to be suspicious and report that suspicion. I repeat what I have said earlier that we all need to be alert to events around us whether white, black, yellow or purple people are involved. That is the world we now live in and, regrettably, most threats to the community come from radical Islamists. Of that there can be no dispute but this is a very small minority of people who say they are of the Muslim faith and, certainly in my eyes, do NOT represent the vast majority of peace loving Muslim people.

[Robbo70]

Its all about perception though Grandad. If, over the next 6 months, a breakaway division of the Chinese Triads decided they wanted to take over the world, and began random bombing, torture and they would get a sh!t load of media attention. A few shopping mall bombs, and high value building in a capital city, spraying Soho with bullets on a Friday night 3 weeks before Christmas... hey presto, we would all be looking at Chinese people with doubt and fear. The appearance of terrorists is hugely relative to the crisis of the moment. This time, 3 arab looking blokes were acting in a manner deemed suspicious. I dont think the descriptions of anyone doing something dodgy is being racist in this current climate.

On a lighter note, sinse moving to St Helens which is not what you would call ethnically diverse ( we have about half a dozen non whites ) Omar has been called a pakki, been asked where in India he is from and does he come from Sri Lanka. The carphone warehouse bloke started chatting in spanish last week With a lack of sunshine he is getting a tad pale now so we are waiting for the next suggestion of origin

[Grandad]

Omar has been called a pakki, been asked where in India he is from and does he come from Sri Lanka. The carphone warehouse bloke started chatting in spanish last week With a lack of sunshine he is getting a tad pale now so we are waiting for the next suggestion of origin

Perhaps peoples holiday horizons should be a bit wider than 'Tenerifee' or 'Lanzagrote'

[Mad Dilys]

I offered to share a taxi with some mature Saudi ladies once and during the journey they asked what part of their country I came from - and we were in Cairo!

It didn't occur to them that I had typical Celtic colouring and above average height, speaking Arabic with a Saidi accent!

Just another case of people jumping to conclusions and wouldn't change their minds, bless them.

They were so sweet and so insistent that I looked like Aunty A or more like cousin B I couldn't convince them otherwise.

[Robbo70]

Give me a week in egypt, I have more colour than most of the women in Cairo!