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 Post subject: Behind the Wall
PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:44 pm  |  Posted from: United States
  

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I'm not an Egyptologist by any stretch but I do enjoy all the Nat Geo documentaries re: Ancient Egypt and really enjoyed visiting VOK and seeing everything related to the Boy King in Cairo Museum.

Given there is now "maybe" another chamber behind the wall of King Tut's tomb anybody want to hazard or bet what IS going to be found behind the wall?

I'm figuring they'll end up drilling a hole and inserting some sort of fibre optics so as to have a look see (although I'm thinking they've probably already done this)

Any thoughts? Bets?

What do you think they're going to find?


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 Post subject: Re: Behind the Wall
PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:57 am  |  Posted from: United Kingdom
  

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Once again you ask some interesting questions LLL and not so easy to answer, but I will give it a go. I don’t know if you have ever visited the tomb of Tutankhamun, but if you have you will know it is quite small. You enter down a flight of steps and along a short passage into a room that crosses in front of you, to your left on the opposite side is a small room referred to as the ‘Annex’. You then turn to your right and at the end of the room you look down into the burial chamber that contains the sarcophagus. This burial chamber is cut across the room you are standing in and is a lot wider so that it extends further to the left creating a step in the left hand wall as you face the sarcophagus. Directly across from you is a painted wall that depicts an Osiris figure in white, it is behind this that the suspected corridor exists. To the rifght of the Osiris figure can be seen the Mummy of Tutankhamun with his successor ‘Ay’ performing the ‘opening of the mouth’ ceremony. We can determine that it is the High Priest Ay as he is wearing his Leopard skin robe over his shoulder, a symbol of his office. Also it is the dead Pharaoh’s successor that performs this ceremony so we know he is the next pharaoh.

To the right of this wall is another small room that is known as the ‘Treasury’ and this room also extends back in the direction that takes it beyond the face of the painted wall we have just referred to. So if you were to stand in the Annex facing the same direction as the Osiris figure and walk forward several yards and then turn to face sharp left, you would in effect be looking behind the Osiris figure painted wall, so if you drilled a hole somewhere here and should there be a corridor, you could see into it. The other good thing is that this wall is undecorated so should not present a problem if they chose to do that.

As to what they may or may not find, well, that is entirely up to speculation. Back in antiquity the priests of Thebes re-buried and removed many mummies for safe keeping, these were known as the Deir El Bahari cache and contained many of today’s famous pharaohs. Some were identified and some were possibly miss-labelled as to their true identity, one such body may have been Akhenaten ‘the heretic pharaoh’ and father of Tutankhamun and husband of Nefertiti. It is thought that his mummy has been identified using DNA techniques, although it was in very poor condition and the sarcophagus had been defaced, so it is unlikely to be him. Another candidate would be Neffertiti who possibly ruled as a pharaoh in her own right, but again pure speculation and Dr Joanne Fletcher claimed to have identified her as one of the three mummies found in an anti chamber of another tomb in the VOK. Another candidate could be Queen Tiye, mother of Akhenaten and Grandmother of Tutankhamun, but again her mummy from the same cache and usually referred to as the ‘Elder Lady’ has been identified as being her.

As an aside she is considered to be the matriarch of the Amarna dynasty and although she is quite attractive, her statues always show her with down turned edges to her mouth which remind me of a scowling mother in law. However if a mummy could ever be described as being attractive then she would certainly fit the bill, her long natural hair (as seen on her mummy) and sculptured features say that at one time she must have been.

So who is potentially behind the wall, well most of the obvious candidates are accounted for, however that does not say that they were never there at some time.
Tutankhamun’s tomb was robbed in antiquity, although not fully pillaged. Fortunately the priests re-sealed the tomb again and it stayed that way until Carter rediscovered it. So, and this is pure speculation on my part, it is also possible that the Osiris wall was also breached and resealed and even repainted by the priests of Thebes to once again disguise what lay behind. This could even account for the hasty decoration and a few workman’s tools scattered around the other chambers, but as I say this is pure conjecture on my part, but just as likely as any other theory.

It may simply be expediency, if you consider that Tutankhamen’s successor ‘Ay was already an old man when he became Pharaoh, then he had little time to complete his own tomb, so it is very likely that he usurped a tomb that really belonged to Tutankhamun in what is known as the Western Valley adjacent to the VOK. If this was the case then he probably used his own unfinished tomb for Tutankhamuns burial and as an unfinished, but much smaller tomb (as befitted his own status) it may have had another unfinished room or corridor that continued onward past the Osiris wall. As the tomb shows many signs of being hastily completed it may just be a case of blocking off this unfinished room or corridor in time for the burial of Tutankhamun.
If this proves to be the case then remember you read it here first.

Another possibility is that Tutankhamuns tomb was accidentally cut into another tomb and so the wall was sealed off again. This has happened several times in the VOK and in one example KV12 was cut into by the builders of KV9. So finally LLL, I cannot answer your question and like everyone else all I can do is to speculate, I do however remember many years ago another excellent Egyptologist John Romer said that he knew of the location of at least another two tombs in the VOK, but he would not reveal them until the politics of Egypt changed for the better, since then I have often stood in the valley and said to Mrs H “they will find another tomb just here” and sure enough on my last visit Otto John Schaden was digging in that same area and found a cache now known as KV63.

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 Post subject: Re: Behind the Wall
PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 5:19 am  |  Posted from: United States
  

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Excellent analysis and synopsis H!

When I went to VOK I went into 3 tombs but NOT the one of King Tut. I don't specifically remember why I didn't go into his tomb but have vague memories that it wasn't open however I could have equally run out of time the day I was there. The heat and climbing rather curtailed my sense of adventure ;) but the few tombs I was in were phenomenal!

I'm betting there is another room or chamber. I'm sure they've had those x-ray machines down there showing 'something' otherwise I don't believe this potential possible find would be as BIG as it seems to be.

As to what they might find - well - course I'm betting there will be exotic ancient finds of gold, jewels + jewelry, pottery, furnishings AND maybe even another sarcophagus + mummy! (I'm really pulling for another Mummy yet to be identified as that might either add to present knowledge OR create another big mystery as to 'who' this person might be)

I'm also positive "they" (whomever the Egyptologist Big Shots might be) have peeked into the room. I don't think it would take more than a half inch drill bit to poke a hole and feed a fiber optic line through to get a look see and I'm positive the Keepers of the Tomb or the Keepers of VOK have done this.

On another serious note - you could very well be correct that the tomb of Tut was quickly made and it might have been easier to seal off a back wall to cover a less than desirable area than to leave it all open.

To see what is behind the wall is definitely something to look forward to :) :) :)

Not sure what opinion other have or what they're betting on though..........


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 Post subject: Re: Behind the Wall
PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 1:22 pm  |  Posted from: United Kingdom
  

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If you study the Amarna period you can see that from a religious view it was very traumatic, a period that several factions would rather put behind them, especially the priesthood. So Tutankhamun’s death was an opportunity to put it all behind them and most likely explains all the objects that seem not to be specifically made for him, but were included in his tomb as a way of getting rid of them and any lasting reference to that period in history by lumping them together in one place. Several others disappear at the same time, Ankhesenamun the wife of Tutankamun who could well have been the granddaughter of the Pharaoh Ay has only partially been identified by DNA testing. Then we have the elusive Smenkhare who may have been a brother of Tutankhamun or may have even been Nefertiti changing her name after Akhenaton’s death so as to rule as a Pharaoh. Then again she may have rules as a co-regent to a young Smenkhkare as Neferneferuaten, all these are possible candidates for inclusion. Then we have ‘Kiya’ who at one time was believed to be Tutankhamen’s mother, but once again DNA seems to rule this out and it was thought to be her cache that was found by Scharmer as KV63 in the VOK. It is also possible that Nefertiti is his mother although the lack of any images of her with a son argues against it, my money would be that if anything is behind that wall then it may well be someone very close to him such as his mother.

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 Post subject: Re: Behind the Wall
PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 5:56 pm  |  Posted from: United Kingdom
  

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That is a very interesting summation, Horus, and extremely well written too! :up I have been fortunate enough to visit Tutankhamen's tomb and your 'guided tour' took me straight back there! :D One thing I have always said is that I believe there is far more under the sand than has been uncovered so far and I see no reason to change my opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: Behind the Wall
PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 6:30 pm  |  Posted from: United Kingdom
  

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RS wrote:
Quote:
That is a very interesting summation, Horus, and extremely well written too!

Thank you Ruby S, I am in what you may call 'thesis' writing mode at the moment, :lol: :lol: but maybe more about that next week. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Behind the Wall
PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 6:53 pm  |  Posted from: United Kingdom
  

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That sounds intriguing, Horus! Do we really have to contain our souls in patience? Not even a teeny tiny hint? :?:


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 Post subject: Re: Behind the Wall
PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 7:39 pm  |  Posted from: United States
  

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"Aw geez yeah!!!" (and I'm seconding what Ruby Slippers just said) ~~ Throw out the word THESIS and then not say any more????!!! THAT is teasing big time H!! ;) ;) ;)

Not even one other hint?


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 Post subject: Re: Behind the Wall
PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 8:28 pm  |  Posted from: United Kingdom
  

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Sorry, that was a bit misleading, thesis was perhaps the wrong word to have used, lets just say I am in writing mode at the moment ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Behind the Wall
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 12:03 am  |  Posted from: United Kingdom
  

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Yippee! Can we expect some little 'vignettes' from Africa? :up


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 Post subject: Re: Behind the Wall
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 1:22 am  |  Posted from: United Kingdom
  

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:lol: Always a possibility I suppose.

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 Post subject: Re: Behind the Wall
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 12:20 pm  |  Posted from: United Kingdom
  

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A thought just flashed through my brain, is it possible that the whole thing is made up to drive more tourists, after all it has been very quite lately in Egypt/Luxor.

It will be very disappointing if nothing is found......but........I really hope they do find something.

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 Post subject: Re: Behind the Wall
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 4:08 pm  |  Posted from: United Kingdom
  

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Unlikely Kiya, it came about because a well known and respected guy Nicholas Reeves spotted something unusual when looking at very high resolution scans that were taken inside the tomb. As you will know if you watch any science programs that use scanning techniques they can often reveal things that the human eye misses. When we stand in somewhere like Tut’s tomb we are usually trying to take in too much information plus the variation in light levels doesn’t allow us to see the overall picture very clearly, but studying the scans in an environment away from the tomb can often reveal hidden details. It looks as if he had detected a definite outline in the wall behind the sarcophagus, something that was only visible in the scans, but not to the naked eye. Maybe the scans had a penetrative effect similar to the way that they can scan oil paintings and see another picture underneath when the canvas has been re-used, or when the artist made a change to their initial painting at a later date. It must have been pretty convincing evidence to get them to allow further investigation and like you I hope that they do find something of interest, if not another burial then maybe some more Amarna artefacts.

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 Post subject: Re: Behind the Wall
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 7:55 pm  |  Posted from: United States
  

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I'm definitely convinced they've seen something super interesting otherwise this entire matter would not have gone this far. I'm hoping for the discovery of another tomb + bodies!! :)


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 Post subject: Re: Behind the Wall
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:57 pm  |  Posted from: United Kingdom
  

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I wish I could have spotted something the couple of times I've been in Tuts' tomb.................ach well I'm only human ;)

I hope they don't keep us waiting too long :)

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 Post subject: Re: Behind the Wall
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 11:54 pm  |  Posted from: United Kingdom
  

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Kiya, don’t you find it fascinating that so many of us that have never even met, can say that we have stood on the very same spot in what was once a very remote and undiscovered place on the planet? I often think the same when I stand in front of a giant statue of Ramses II or the obelisks of Queen Hatshepsut and I think to myself that maybe they stood on the very same spot I am standing now all those millennia ago looking at the same thing. :tk

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 Post subject: Re: Behind the Wall
PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:07 pm  |  Posted from: United Kingdom
  

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Yes Horus many a time I've had the same thoughts :)

I think I've said before, standing looking into the eyes of Akenaten on the wall in Luxor museum I could almost see him turning to flesh. :)

And reading so many books on the Richard III era would explain why I was glued to the TV watching the re-interment of his bones that I felt I almost new him & all his family :)

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 Post subject: Re: Behind the Wall
PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:41 pm  |  Posted from: United Kingdom
  

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I love the touchy feely thing about some historical places, like standing in what was the Pharaohs bathroom (for want of a better word) at Denderah temple. A tiny little space, but one could imagine him standing there in that very spot with servants pouring water over his head. I once stood in the very same spot as you see Hitler standing in those old newsreels when he was in Paris right opposite the Eifel Tower, it is a terrace of steps with a small balcony at the top, I love historical places and their association with figures from history. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Behind the Wall
PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2015 3:30 am  |  Posted from: Canada
  

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Very interesting the thoughts and feelings one gets when you are in an historical place where you know great and famous people have lived. I swear sometimes you can actually FEEL them, at least, I get feelings that are very hard to describe when I've been in famous historical places. One definitely can see and feel the greatness and can almost see how another from long ago would be and act in such a location.

I've also been in the far remote isolate north and walked through primordial forests where I'm positive no other person has ever been before. You step on moss that is feets thick knowing given the harsh weather conditions it has taken thousands of years for a lichen to grow an mere fraction. Moss & lichen hang off branches, warrens are incredibly huge and the entire landscape shows no sign of man. Silence is absolute and you can feel so incredibly alone.


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 Post subject: Re: Behind the Wall
PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2015 4:07 am  |  Posted from: United Kingdom
  

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I know exactly what you mean :up

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