What do you think? Thoughts? Opinions?

Egypt has both Christian and Moslem communities and the politics of the Middle East are equally diverse. Air your views on the situation.

Moderators: DJKeefy, 4u Network

Post Reply
User avatar
LovelyLadyLux
Egypt4u God
Egypt4u God
Posts: 11596
Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2009 9:12 pm
Location: Canada
Has thanked: 417 times
Been thanked: 2714 times
Canada

What do you think? Thoughts? Opinions?

Post by LovelyLadyLux »

Given the craziness in the world and all the recent shootings and killings over cartoons & Jihadis I've been seriously pondering what this article addresses. Thoughts? Opinions? Or too touchy a topic to talk about?

Guess I'm just trying to figure it out and understand ........

Why Can't Muslims Laugh at Mohammed?

by David P. Goldman
Asia Times Online
May 5, 2015

In Mel Brooks' comedy History of the World Part I, Moses is shown descending from Mount Sinai with three stone tablets in hand. As he declares, "I give you the Fifteen Commandments," one falls and breaks, and Moses corrects himself, "er, Ten Commandments."

Jews, including the observant, find this funny rather than offensive. As we learned once again in Garland, Texas, Muslims do not laugh at jokes about Mohammed, the purported author of the Koran (as Moses is the author of the Torah). Two wannabe Jihadists with assault rifles and body armor were no match for an off-duty Texas traffic cop with a sidearm, but the incident might have turned into a massacre worse than the murder of the Charlie Hebdo staff in January.

Why do Jews as well as Christians–but not Muslims–laugh at jokes about the founders of their faiths?

The answer is that radically different deities are in question. Judaism begins with a covenant between God and human beings–Abraham and his descendants–that is a partnership in which God is normally, but not always, the senior partner. As Rabbi Lord Jonathan Sacks observes, the Jewish sages of antiquity envisioned Moses acting as a judge for God, permitting God to annul his earlier vow to destroy the Jewish people after the sin of the Golden Calf. This is unimaginable in Islam, just as unimaginable as the Christian God who humbles himself on the cross.

Humor arises from the impossible tension between an infinite God and finite man.

That does not diminish the sanctity of holy writ: if a Torah scroll is dropped accidentally during Jewish services, Jewish law binds the congregation to a month of fasting. But the Jewish (and hence also the Christian) God allows his children to give him an argument, as Abraham does in the matter of Sodom and Gomorrah, and Moses does on several occasions. Humor arises from the impossible tension between an infinite God and finite man. "Humor is intrinsic to Christianity," wrote the great Danish theologian Soren Kierkegaard, "because truth is hidden in mystery."

Jewish and Christian scriptures are human reports of an encounter with the Divine. The foundation of the Christian Bible consists of four separate reports of the ministry of Jesus of Nazareth that in some respects contradict each other.

The Koran, to be sure, has contradictory elements, which are addressed through so-called Abrogation Theory (Naskh), allowing one Koranic verse to be nullified by another. But Mohammed's revelation of the Koran is not a human report so much as a stenographic transcription of the purported words of Allah. No Muslim argues that Mohammed was more than human, but for practical purposes he is indistinguishable from Allah, because he was simply the vessel into which Allah supposedly his directions. To make light of Mohammed is to impugn Allah. It is not blasphemous to laugh at Moses, whose human failings prevented him from leaving the people of Israel into the promised land. To humanize Mohammed, though, is an act of lèse-majesté against the Muslim God. That is not quite the same thing as joking about Moses or St. Matthew.

Personally, I find most convincing the argument by the German convert to Islam, Prof. Muhammed Sven Kalisch, that the Prophet Mohammed did not exist in the first place–at least not a man who in any way resembles the figure portrayed in the standard Muslim account. That is in some ways beside the point: there is no divine-human encounter in Islam, no revelation, only the selection of a human mouth as the loudspeaker by which Allah declares his Koran. Allah could as well have employed a talking rock. The Muslim god therefore remains utterly remote from humans, unconstrained in power and arbitrary in his actions. It is Allah's caprice that electrons spin around an atom's nucleus, or that planets describe an ellipsis around the sun.

As Franz Rosenzweig observed, the actions of God are indistinguishable from naive observation of the natural world. They simply are the way things are, and for no other reason than it is Allah's whim that they be that way. An atheist who believes that the world is utterly chaotic and random will see the world in precisely the same way, with one grand difference: the way things are, to Muslims, includes the sedimentary layers of centuries of tribal practice: wife-beating, slavery, punishment by amputation, female genital mutilation (depending on the tribal history), and so forth. To slight Mohammed, and by extension Allah, means the ruin of the way things are, the dissolution of the ties that hold society together. To question the way things are is to inspire social chaos.

That is why most Muslims in the most populous Muslim countries (with the notable exceptions of Indonesia and once-secular Turkey) believe that apostasy should be punished by death. It is also why the moment that the literacy rate in Muslim countries reaches the 80% mark, the proportion of people claiming to be non-religious jumps.

Iran, the first Muslim country to approach universal adult literacy, is by far the least religious, despite its theocratic regime. When the regime falls, as it eventually must, we will discover that there are no more Muslims in Iran than there were Communists in the Soviet Union. Iran's mosque attendance rate is the lowest in the Muslim world at less than 30% by one estimate, and much lower by other estimates.

To question the way things are is blasphemy in Islam. Religious observance in Iran collapsed in tandem with the country's fertility rate (down from 7 children per female in 1979 to just 1.6 in 2012), a gauge of how rapidly traditional society has dissolved.

The organizers of the Garland, Texas exhibition of Mohammed caricatures–the Dutch politician Geert Wilders and the anti-jihad campaigners Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer–have proven their point: To placate Muslims in their resistance to modernity would require the West to give up being the West. Today's resurgence of Muslim fundamentalism is something of a Ghost Dance, a grand flourish of existential despair before the way things are turns into the way things were, and never will be again.

David P. Goldman is a Senior Fellow at the London Center for Policy Research and the Wax Family Fellow at the Middle East Forum. His book How Civilizations Die (and why Islam is Dying, Too) was published in September 2011. A volume of his essays on culture, religion and economics, It's Not the End of the World - It's Just the End of You, also appeared that fall.


User avatar
Horus
Egypt4u God
Egypt4u God
Posts: 12363
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:15 am
Location: UK
Has thanked: 1658 times
Been thanked: 2213 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Re: What do you think? Thoughts? Opinions?

Post by Horus »

Because to laugh at any aspect would be to criticise it in some way and to my mind it is a faith that falls apart the moment you start to criticise it. The proof of any claim is to let others attempt to find the flaws in what you are saying, this is a well accepted method in the academic world where any theory has to be put to the test, no one is espected to just accept it with a blind faith, we call that sort of blind acceptance indoctrination. 8)
Image
User avatar
Grandad
Egyptian Pharaoh
Egyptian Pharaoh
Posts: 6924
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:15 am
Location: South East UK
Has thanked: 797 times
Been thanked: 2254 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Re: What do you think? Thoughts? Opinions?

Post by Grandad »

Horus wrote:this is a well accepted method in the academic world where any theory has to be put to the test, no one is espected to just accept it with a blind faith, we call that sort of blind acceptance indoctrination. 8)
And isn't that ' blind acceptance indoctrination' at the root of much of the extremist troubles around the world. There is one Allah and the word of Allah must not be challenged and we must ALL live by the word of Allah.

Reading this topic I thought obliquely about where Muslim comedians stand as far as the word of Allah is concerned. There are some very funny such comedians and from my recollection they DO appear to refer to Allah but I am not sure if they actually question his word. Perhaps they have to tread a very careful path and although funny men, and women, must take care to avoid being the subject of 'fatwah'
:gg:
User avatar
Jayway
Royal V.I.P
Royal V.I.P
Posts: 1617
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 12:47 am
Location: Portugal
Has thanked: 1234 times
Been thanked: 107 times
Portugal

Re: What do you think? Thoughts? Opinions?

Post by Jayway »

Very interesting but totally ridiculous. For me all religions are for weak people who cannot think for themselves and need to be led. I will never understand WHY people can believe in these fairy stories, I find the american "abduction by space creatures " slightly more credible - - :fart: This is not a new opinion of mine, I was evicted from school assembly most years.
User avatar
LovelyLadyLux
Egypt4u God
Egypt4u God
Posts: 11596
Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2009 9:12 pm
Location: Canada
Has thanked: 417 times
Been thanked: 2714 times
Canada

Re: What do you think? Thoughts? Opinions?

Post by LovelyLadyLux »

I've wondered for awhile, ever since year ago the Danish cartoon came out which brought a flash of anger, why there is always such extreme anger whenever there is the perception of the slightest slight. I've been trying to understand the 'why' behind the actions. I found this article, at least, gave an explanation that explains the emotional actions.

Am still thinking on this subject and really am trying to understand vs just criticize why so many Muslims hold this belief.

@ Jayway - I'm not particularly religious in the conventional sense of going to church and listening to a weekly sermon nor do I see people who do this as being weak. I do think nowadays it is very 'in vogue' to say you're an atheist but if you 'believe' in this is that not its own form of religion?

I've always mulled when a preference, a thought pattern, a consideration of 'this is the way' turns into a belief and then further into a belief that much be followed. Think in terms of yoga or veganism - could these two lifestyles become a religion with the deity being yourself as it is YOU you are worshipping? That can't possibly make you weak, in fact it makes you stronger to have a belief, a way of life, an adherence to a set of rules and on and on.

And - Believing in a 'higher power' (something greater than yourself) has literally saved from total personal distruction many alcoholics and drug addicts and there is nothing weak about resurrecting a life that has personally destroyed you. Many addicts, who left to their own devices, have had extremely dysfunctional lives and it isn't until they've come to recognize their 'higher power' that they've turned into positive production functioning people. Is that religion? They have to believe so if they do then this is kinda of their religion and this believing doesn't make them weak. Have a faith based thought actually makes them stronger IMO.

So - back to the Muslim and laughing at the Prophet issue ....... if from birth every aspect of your life has actually been guided by layer after layer of tribal law and interactions in a 'what will be will be' life because there is an omnipresent, all powerful, all knowing, everywhere God (as per the article) then ?? Just me trying to understand it ... my own 'need to know' and I can say from my own reading of the Quran and Bible the Quran does seem to be much more scientifically based on fact than the stories of the Bible - just trying to figure out life ;) ;) ;)

On another note - was watching a TV News Documentary yesterday and ISIS has allowed some News personality (old fellow) into their territory to walk about and talk to the people (although the 'people' were all and only men). This News Announcer was amazed to hear that the people were saying they actually perferred living under ISIS as ISIS was actually looking after the people and providing them with food, goods and services and a level of stability they were not getting under their war torn state.

HOWEVER - on another note - ISIS is laying claim to having a whole bunch of trained fighters already in the USA set and poised to strike :x

;) ;) Once I get the "answer" figured out I'll quit rambling on and on. In the meantime the grey matter is consumed with the quest to know! ;) ;)
Last edited by LovelyLadyLux on Tue May 12, 2015 5:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Horus
Egypt4u God
Egypt4u God
Posts: 12363
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:15 am
Location: UK
Has thanked: 1658 times
Been thanked: 2213 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Re: What do you think? Thoughts? Opinions?

Post by Horus »

I have to agree with you Jay, if you were to tell anyone that you really did believe in 'The Tooth Fairy' 'Santa Clause' or 'The Wicked Witch of the West' you would be laughed out of the room, but say that you believe in some other unproven and unproveable myth based entirely upon the say so of some ancient cult that tells you you must believe everything that they tell you just beggars belief.

Surely logic must tell these adherents of any faith that it has no real basis and is nothing more than just another method of control. The African Witchdoctor, the Voodoo priest use exactly the same air of mystery to confuse and intimidate their lesser informed and ignorant followers that they posses some sort of mystical powers and can commune with gods and spirits. Religions of all denominations are no different, they use mumbo jumbo and ritual to convince the ignorant that they know something that others do not.

How many Vikings willingly embraced death and jumped sword in hand into the fray safe in the knowledge that by nightfall they would be dining in Valhalla with the god Odin? How many Zulu warriors charged the guns of the British army because their witchdoctors told them the bullets would bounce off their bodies? Why did normal people sacrifice their children to the god Baal? Why did the Incas sacrifice captives to the sun god? The answer to these and many dozens more examples is that “somebody told them they had to do it to please the gods”

Throughout human history there have been more variations of worshipping a ‘god’ in one form or another and as each one is supplanted by a later religion the older ones fall by the wayside. So what does that tell us? First of all that the god they all worshipped did not actually exist in the first place or he is still skulking around somewhere bemoaning his fate at being replaced by another better god? Once you start to question all of these now defunct religions that many people adhered to with the same or greater fervour than today’s main religions, then you have to also accept that today’s versions are just that ‘today’s versions’ and they also will be replaced at some point in history with a newer cult.

The clever bit about Islam is that they also added a caveat to their brand of worship by saying that he (Mohammed) was the ‘last’ prophet, thus ensuring that another one cannot come along to usurp his position, a clever move to pre-empt any rival religion. The one thing they all have in common is that you must ‘submit’ yourself to the words and the will of this particular god in whatever form it may take at the time. Human beings by their very nature need to believe that there is something more to their existence beyond being born, living your life and then dying, we are the only creature on the planet that is aware of it’s own mortality. My own view is that I knew nothing before I came into being and I will return to that state when I die, I will just cease to exist as an entity. ;)
Image
User avatar
LovelyLadyLux
Egypt4u God
Egypt4u God
Posts: 11596
Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2009 9:12 pm
Location: Canada
Has thanked: 417 times
Been thanked: 2714 times
Canada

Re: What do you think? Thoughts? Opinions?

Post by LovelyLadyLux »

Surely logic must tell these adherents of any faith that it has no real basis and is nothing more than just another method of control. The African Witchdoctor, the Voodoo priest use exactly the same air of mystery to confuse and intimidate their lesser informed and ignorant followers that they posses some sort of mystical powers and can commune with gods and spirits. Religions of all denominations are no different, they use mumbo jumbo and ritual to convince the ignorant that they know something that others do not.

How many Vikings willingly embraced death and jumped sword in hand into the fray safe in the knowledge that by nightfall they would be dining in Valhalla with the god Odin? How many Zulu warriors charged the guns of the British army because their witchdoctors told them the bullets would bounce off their bodies? Why did normal people sacrifice their children to the god Baal? Why did the Incas sacrifice captives to the sun god? The answer to these and many dozens more examples is that “somebody told them they had to do it to please the gods”
The one thing though that I think is that these Gods were applicable to their time which was a time prior to the rise of Science and man actually knowing these beliefs were not true. I'd propose that a Witch Doctor or Shaman type person did love control and if you can get your own way and elevate your status with the group via smoke/mirrors/tricks then go for it. Granted it was all about power and control and hey if I could do that with the Grandkids and get them to follow me I'd be out there chanting and wearing a head dress.

On the other hand normal thinking people - the average guy and definitely the thinking above average guy - definitely do not want to be lead by the lowest common denominator in society. Like it or not (and I know what I'm going to say is most definitely NOT PC) we are all NOT created equal. Some of us are smarter, more able, more skilled than others and a pretty decent percentage of our population are not really able or capable of running their own lives and actually do prefer somebody else set the rules, make them known and they're happy and more content to follow them.

I actually think most of us on here are free thinkers and know our own mind(s) hence we're actually able to make decisions that work for us on our own however there is a great percentage of society who can't do this and if believing in a God helps them in their daily lives then I'm not too sure I see anything wrong with it. If this creates and maintains social control - well - having social control is not necessarily a bad thing at all.
User avatar
LovelyLadyLux
Egypt4u God
Egypt4u God
Posts: 11596
Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2009 9:12 pm
Location: Canada
Has thanked: 417 times
Been thanked: 2714 times
Canada

Re: What do you think? Thoughts? Opinions?

Post by LovelyLadyLux »

BTW - I'm not sure all Muslim believe the Prophet Muhammed was the 'last' prophet. Are the Shia not waiting for Al Mahadi to appear along with Isa (Jesus) and unite all Muslims bringing peace and harmony to the world?
User avatar
Horus
Egypt4u God
Egypt4u God
Posts: 12363
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:15 am
Location: UK
Has thanked: 1658 times
Been thanked: 2213 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Re: What do you think? Thoughts? Opinions?

Post by Horus »

God, in His infinite Mercy, decided to end the long line of prophets. And to that prophet was revealed the final Law, that would be the way for all of men and jinn until the Last Hour. Muhammad was the final prophet, and after him there will be no more news from Heaven.

The Quran claims that Muhammad is the seal or the last of the prophets:
Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the Messenger of God and the last (end) of the Prophets. And God is Ever All-Aware of everything.
Image
User avatar
LovelyLadyLux
Egypt4u God
Egypt4u God
Posts: 11596
Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2009 9:12 pm
Location: Canada
Has thanked: 417 times
Been thanked: 2714 times
Canada

Re: What do you think? Thoughts? Opinions?

Post by LovelyLadyLux »

Am not an expert by any stretch but thought there was another one coming. Guess not ;) ;)

WHO then is this Al Mahdi fellow or fellow-ess?
User avatar
Horus
Egypt4u God
Egypt4u God
Posts: 12363
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:15 am
Location: UK
Has thanked: 1658 times
Been thanked: 2213 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Re: What do you think? Thoughts? Opinions?

Post by Horus »

WHO then is this Al Mahdi fellow or fellow-ess?
An ultimate savior of humankind and the final Imām of the Twelve Imams who will emerge with Isa (Jesus Christ) in order to fulfill their mission of bringing peace and justice to the world.
Image
Post Reply
  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post