The Shroud of Turin

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The Shroud of Turin

Post by Horus » Wed Dec 16, 2009 2:42 pm

An interesting article in the paper today about the Shroud of Turin, for those not familiar with this, it is reputedly the cloth used to cover the body of Jesus after he was crucified.

The actual shroud is kept in the city of Turin, hence the name and bears an extraordinary image of a crucified man on the cloth. The interesting thing is that the image on the cloth is similar to that of a photographic negative and when a positive image is made, it takes on a remarkable resemblance to a real picture of a crucified man.

Some Christians and even some people of no religious affiliation believe that it is the actual imprint of Jesus that was miraculously imprinted on the cloth as he was resurrected. It can be traced back to the middle ages but its provenance prior to that is not proven. Over the years many people have tried to prove its authenticity while others have tried to prove it was an elaborate hoax carried out by a very skilful artist such as Leonardo Da Vince.

There is no provable paint pigment on the cloth and the image does seem to be the result of some sort of ‘photographic’ exposure that only chemically changed the upper surface of the cloth. When the image is viewed using another technique of using the highlighted areas, an amazing 3D image is also revealed of a man’s body, face and hair. What is more remarkable is that blood patterns emerge on the wrists and forehead that seem to flow in a realistic pattern.

Some investigators say that the features strongly resemble those of Leonardo and he was well known for using his own image in other paintings (possibly the Mona Lisa). He also tended to mock certain figures of authority so to produce such an item as the shroud would not be out of character for him, in addition he was skilled in anatomy and was aware of early photographic tricks such as the ‘camera obscurer’ which project outside images onto a wall in a dark room using only a pinhole in a covered window and natural sunlight.

Some years ago the Vatican allowed a small section to be cut from the shroud and carbon dated to prove or disprove its authenticity. Several testing houses were involved including one in the UK and all came back with a date that put it in the category of a middle ages fake. The controversy still continued with some people claiming that as the cloth had been repaired by nuns after a fire nearly destroyed it, that the sample used in the tests was actually not part of the real shroud and the presence of cotton (that was not known at the time) had given a misleading date making it appear to be much younger than it really was.

The latest twist is that the discovery of a real burial shroud of exactly the same period found in a sealed tomb in Israel is adding more evidence that the Turin one is actually a fake. It would seem that the cloth of the Turin shroud is a twill weave something not used until around 1000 years after Jesus lived, whereas the one found in the tomb is a double cross weave said to be typical of the time.

The Turin shroud is also one piece of cloth measuring 14 feet by 3 feet which experts say is not typical of a burial shroud of the time as these were a two piece arrangement with one wrapping the body and another placed over the face. Apparently this was done so that anyone not really dead could blow it away from the face and call for help.

They also believed that this was the reason that families (as in the case of Jesus) would return to the tomb after 3 days to check that the person was really dead and not in some sort of comatose state. DNA tests have shown that the original owner of the shroud died of leprosy and this is probably the reason that the tomb was sealed, thus preserving the 2000 year old shroud.

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Post by cbrbddd » Wed Dec 16, 2009 4:23 pm

Interesting stuff! I didn't really know about some of this even though I've heard of the shroud of Turin my whole life (being Catholic born and raised) . . . The stories of Jesus are so firmly implanted in my head after all those growing up years going to church all the time!

I hate to hear that it is a hoax but so many strange things have been done over the years that have been purported to be hoaxes and conspiracies . . . hence the popularity of a current author's books plus the resulting movies.
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Post by Kiya » Wed Dec 16, 2009 4:28 pm

Horus interesting read, I didn't see it in the papers as I haven't bought a paper for yrs with all the usual rubbish in them, but I always watch any good documentaries on the Turin shroud etc etc.

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Post by Horus » Wed Dec 16, 2009 5:31 pm

Kiya, glad you enjoyed the article :)

Catherine, even though it is evidence against it being genuine, you never really know, someone may come along with an alternative bit of conflicting evidence. Although I like to think I behave in a Christian manner, I don't really subscribe to any strong religious beliefs. I do however believe that a man called Jesus existed around that time and probably preached to others the faith he believed in. His set of rules don't seem too bad to me and I have only broken a few of them to my knowledge (not saying which ones :lol: ) As I said I do believe he was a character from history and any proof of his existance or facts about his life I would be interested to know about in a historical context. I have heard that a nun who cares for the shroud in the Vatican has made a claim that she has seen the inscription 'Jesus Nazareth' on the shroud, but it is probably another hoax similar to the ossuary (a bone box) that claimed to have the inscription 'Jesus, son of Joseph, brother of James' written in an ancient script on the outside.
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Post by cbrbddd » Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:06 pm

H, I am like you in that I don't subscribe to a particular religion anymore. Still hard to shake off the upbringing since it does become well ingrained.

I do agree that what Jesus had to teach isn't a bad way to live ones life. We all need a set of rules to follow and ones that remind us to live better lives and treat people better, be more compassionate, etc . . . well, these aren't such bad ideas to follow! I just wish that more ppl who "profess" to be his followers actually listened to what he said.
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Post by Horus » Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:51 pm

I could not agree more :)
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Post by PRchick » Thu Dec 17, 2009 1:37 am

We covered this all over on the blue side some time ago. Yes it was proven that the part of the shoud orginally tested was from a repair done at a much later time. When they went back and tested another portion of the cloth, it was dated to the time of Christ. If I can find the time, I'll look that up again and post it.
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Post by Horus » Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:26 am

I remember that one PR :) I think that the difference here is this latest discovery is a proven example of the type in use at the time and dated to the exact historical period. So I suppose that the argument would go along the lines of does the Shroud of Turin have the same attributes as the authenticated genuine article? time will tell I suppose.
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Post by Ebikatsu » Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:50 pm

Do you not think that the Vatican would have given the sample from a piece that was not the repair, and if it was from a repair piece then why did they not ask for another piece of the original?
Why not test again.

Last night I was reading about the dissolution of the monasteries and they were saying that the monks had so many fake and ingenious relics with holed to put chalk dust and oil in to replicate the 'Virgins Milk', holes and contraptions to fill with water for crying virgins and saints, lots of things like that. A bit like that Hindu statue that weeps milk :?
Anyway these monks made a fortune out of these so called relics and were the owners of about a third of English land and their coffers were filled with jewels and gold given to them by pilgrims to pray for them. Maybe it dates to that era?
The monks had thriving businesses going with fakes. Maybe it is fake and if it's not then why deosn't the CC doesn't allow more testing and decide once and for all ?

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Post by cbrbddd » Thu Dec 17, 2009 3:14 pm

Ebikatsu wrote: The monks had thriving businesses going with fakes. Maybe it is fake and if it's not then why deosn't the CC doesn't allow more testing and decide once and for all ?
OK, Egyptians have been pedaling fake Ancient Egyptian stuff for eons :? . . . but that is off topic . . . just thought I'd throw out another example to muddy the waters. ;)

Now I think I better retire back to my usual innocuous posting :lol:
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Post by Horus » Thu Dec 17, 2009 4:21 pm

I agree with Ebi, in the middle ages there were lots of so called relics, it was reckoned that if all the fragments from the 'True Cross' were put together they would make a small forest. :lol:
It was a way of making money from the pilgrims, not unlike the Saudi’s in modern times, every monastery needed a holy relic to attract the faithful. I think that the reasoning behind the area that was selected for the shroud sample was that as it had already sustained some damage it would be less of a problem to cut a bit out of that particular area. I suppose peoples sentiments have to be taken into account when dealing with something like this, just imagine trying to chip a few bits off the Dome of the Rock mosque or St Paul’s Cathedral to carry out some carbon dating. I think that the only other time they will allow it to be tested is when the technique is more refined and is less intrusive and in fairness to the Vatican they did allow the original tests to be carried out.
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Post by Ebikatsu » Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:26 pm

The Hajj at Mecca is a pillar of Islam but I do agree that over time a lot of the ritual was fabricated.
ie kissing a stone, is kissing not a veneration of some kind like kissing the Virgin Mary statue?

drinking holy water at Zamzam, bit like Lourdes.

worshiping the prophet's tomb at Medina
The custodian of the two mosques should not in my opinion be Mecca and Medina, it should be Mecca and Jerusalem Dome of the Rock. Medina was only built over the prophets tomb after the revelations. Why would that tomb be a place of worship when we worship God and not prophets. The Quran mentions the night journey to Jerusalem so it must have been the dome of the rock.

women not being able to go without a mahram

To extend the ritual brings in money no doubt?

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Post by Scott » Sun Dec 20, 2009 9:14 am

Given the reverence with which the Holy Roman Church treats the Shroud, and their knowledge of it - I find it quite surprising that the Vatican would allow a REPAIR patch be taken for testing. It would rather suit their cause by ensuring the original fabric was testes. Can they claim to be NOT AWARE of the repair??????
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Post by Ebikatsu » Sun Dec 20, 2009 4:06 pm

exactly Scott.

Seems strange doesn't it :?

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Post by Horus » Sun Dec 20, 2009 8:31 pm

Nothing really strange about it, when using the word repair it should be noted that it is so well done that it is almost invisible to the naked eye. They used a technique that wove the old and frayed part together with the new threads, almost like invisible mending. It is the presence of these cotton like threads that are claimed to distort the real date of trhe Carbon 14 dating technique. I have seen pictures of these repairs and they are impossible to pick out, they must not be confused with the scorched areas that are visible in most pictures of the shroud. So I think it is quite acceptible that the Vatican said "cut a bit off a corner" so to speak, as they were not aware of these repairs until the dating results were challenged.
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Post by HEPZIBAH » Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:02 pm

[face=Comic Sans MS]Over the years I've seen a number of documentries about the Turin Shroud. Each has been facinating, and have brought forward many theories as to the evidence for or against it being the Burial Shroud of Chist. One, I recall, carried out a number of experiments using fabric woven in a simialar way to the shroud of Turin, photographic equipment etc. I also saw, not so long ago although I've forgotten the exact details, of a textile expert who was of the believe that the main fabric of the shroud was of the right period.

I'm old enough to remember the Carbon Dating period, maybe that was when I first heard of the Turin Shroud, and I remember thinking even then that Carbon dating was fine but that we were still measuring something by a timetable set down by man and it could be wrong. I think Carbon dating was in it's infancy then. I may be wrong but I thought another small sample had been taken in recent years and retested by Carbon dating and the results found to be more supportive of the period of Christ's burial.

I'm not sure what benefit 'knowing' the authenticity of the shroud will be. There will always be believers and sceptics regardless of what science declares.[/face]
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Post by HEPZIBAH » Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:43 pm

[face=Comic Sans MS]Sorry it's late - I've just noticed that there is a programme on tonight about the Turin Shroud.[/face]

Wed. 30th Nov Channel 4 8pm = The Turin Shroud: The New Evidence

A look at new research casting fresh light on the origin of the supposed burial cloth of Jesus.
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Post by PRchick » Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:50 am

Turin Shroud 'could be genuine as carbon-dating was flawed'
New evidence suggests the Turin Shroud could have been the cloth in which Jesus was buried, as experiments that concluded it was a medieval fake were flawed.

By Stephen Adams
Published: 5:23PM BST 10 Apr 2009


Turin Shroud could be genuine, scientist has said Radio carbon dating carried out in 1988 was performed on an area of the relic that was repaired in the 16th century, according to Ray Rogers, who helped lead the Shroud of Turin Research Project (STRP).

At the time he argued firmly that the shroud, which bears a Christlike image, was a clever forgery.

Rogers, a chemist from the Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico, said: "I don't believe in miracles that defy the laws of nature. After the 1988 investigation I'd given up on the shroud.

"But now I am coming to the conclusion that it has a very good chance of being the piece of cloth that was used to bury the historic Jesus."

He came to his conclusion after re-examining a theory from two amateur scientists that he had earlier dismissed as being from "the lunatic fringe".

Sue Benford and Joe Marina, from Ohio, suspected the 1988 sample was from a damaged section of the linen shroud repaired in the 16th century after being damaged in a fire.

Rogers said: "I was irritated and determined to prove Sue and Joe wrong."

However, when he came to examine threads taken in 1978 - luckily from the same section as the 1988 sample - he found cotton in them.

He said: "The cotton fibres were fairly heavily coated with dye, suggesting they were changed to match the linen during a repair.

"I concluded that area of the shroud was manipulated by someone with great skill.

"Sue and Joe were right. The worst possible sample for carbon dating was taken.

"It consisted of different materials than were used in the shroud itself, so the age we produced was inaccurate."

In the video, made shortly before he died of cancer in March 2005, he said: "I came very close to proving the shroud was used to bury the historic Jesus."

This latest evidence, to be broadcast in The Turin Shroud: New Evidence at 8pm on Sunday on the Discovery Channel, is the latest chapter in the shroud's history.

For the last 21 years most have considered it to be a medieval fake, after the 1988 tests dated it as being made between 1260 and 1390.

The result overturned 10 years of hope among Christians that it was real, after the first scientific tests found evidence of blood and serum stains.

The earliest documented sighting of the shroud is from 1353, but last week a historian claimed in the Vatican's newspaper that she had found a "missing link" in the Holy See's Secret Archives proving the Knights Templar had safeguarded it during the 13th century.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstop ... lawed.html
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Post by Ebikatsu » Mon Jan 04, 2010 2:01 pm

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Post by Ebikatsu » Mon Jan 04, 2010 2:46 pm

A few observations.

The shroud seems to show a crown of thorns on the head if I am not mistaken. Wouldn't that have been removed by Joseph when wrapping the body?

Joseph reportedly took possession of the body and laid it on the linen sheet then folded it back over the head end and wrapped it. Presumably with all the injuries and especially the 'spear in the side' wouldn't the body have had much more blood on it and shown on the shroud?


The body wrapped in the shroud would have had to be carried from Calvary to the tomb. I'm assuming by the Romans or by Joseph in some form of transport?
Wouldn't the journey down the hill to the tomb make smear marks on the shroud?

It just looks too perfect an imprint to me.