Board index » EGYPT » History and Archaeology

 


Post new topic Reply to topic
          
Author Message
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:00 pm  |  Posted from: Canada
  

User avatar
Egypt4u God
Egypt4u God

Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2009 11:12 pm
Posts: 10340
Topics: 1867
Images: 1606
Arcade Highscores: 1
Gender: None specified
Location: Canada
Canada
Just read an interesting short article from "The Primate Page" whereby they discussed the pros and cons of castrating male mountain gorillas. There are about 100 mountain gorillas in zoos in the UK (60 female and 40 male). Unaltered males are more aggressive and in the wild tend to form harems which isn't really possible in captivity while castrated male gorillas are definitely easier to manage as they don't fully develop all the characteristics of an intact male.

Several primate organizations there are against castration citing this is a form of exploitation of the animal and also it being a very drastic measure.

The other argument which I'm now thinking about is summed in this quote: "Dr Chris Draper, head of animal welfare and captivity at the Born Free Foundation, told Sky News: "It's a classic example of making the animal fit the environment rather than the other way around."

Given that Mountain Gorillas are now found in extremely limited numbers should we be altering them or really any wild animal so as to make them "fit" more easily into our man made created environment? If we're going to keep animals in cages albeit man made recreated environments is it better for us to take away most of the animals hormonal urges so they can maybe fit into their enclosure or should they really be left unaltered even if for breeding purposes at some time?

We routine geld horses to make them more manageable and it is almost 100% (unless you're a breeder) to spray & neuter dogs and cats BUT is it really appropriate to be castrating Mountain gorillas or any of the more endangered or semi-endangered exotic animals?


  Top                        
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:47 pm  |  Posted from: United Kingdom
  

User avatar
Egyptian Pharaoh
Egyptian Pharaoh

Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:15 am
Posts: 6001
Topics: 387
Images: 2312
Arcade Highscores: 0
Gender: Male
Location: South East UK
United Kingdom
LLL, many of the gorillas in the UK are in the two Aspinal zoo parks, a short drive from where I live. They have a program of breeding and returning to the wild many endangered species including gorillas. I have never heard of them using castration and have assumed that if they have an imbalance of baby male/female gorillas, they would move the excess to other zoos around Europe.
The zoos are very popular particularly Port Lympne where you can take a safari drive around the vast estate.
https://www.aspinallfoundation.org/

____________________________________________
:gg:


  Top                        
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:04 pm  |  Posted from: Canada
  

User avatar
Egypt4u God
Egypt4u God

Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2009 11:12 pm
Posts: 10340
Topics: 1867
Images: 1606
Arcade Highscores: 1
Gender: None specified
Location: Canada
Canada
@ Grandad - it wasn't a large article so I probably should have cut and pasted it but the Zoo you mention is actually opposed to castration. I never considered ever that zoos might be castrating any of the great apes. I also compartmentalize them as endangered so I always assumed they'd want to keep as large a gene pool as possible. Seemingly they're wanting to castrate young so as to stop the gorilla from fully developing and I do understand they're social creatures yet you can't necessarily keep lots of males together. It is rather an ethical issue to me but I'm tending to think about it more in terms of keeping as many breeding gorillas alive as possible.


Zoo gorillas 'face castration so they are easier to keep'

Scientists want them to develop more like "butch" females instead of turning into "silverback" males which can be aggressive.

12:14, UK, Sunday 02 September 2018

Image: Dozens of male gorillas face castration. File pic

Dozens of young male gorillas in UK and European zoos face being castrated as part of a plan to make them more manageable, reports say.

Scientists apparently want them to develop more like "butch" females instead of turning into "silverback" mature males which are very strong and can be aggressive and difficult to look after.

As the young males get older they start to challenge their fathers and have to be kept separately or in bachelor groups which can create more problems with how they are managed.

Also there tends to be a surplus of males - as gorillas produce equal numbers of males and females but they go on to live in harems of one male to two or three females.

Castration involves the apes having their testicles surgically removed.

Mbula and Mwana, young males living in Chessington Zoo, have been castrated.

The castration programme is overseen by the European Association of Zoos and Aquaria (Eaza).

Eaza director of communications David Williams-Mitchell told The Sunday Times that castration was an "ethical alternative".

He added: "Carried out at a young age, [it] prevents development of the full range of adult male characteristics and behaviours... research points to castrated animals continuing to live in their original family groups with no problems."

Mbula and Mwana are in a research group of 11 gorillas who have had the surgery over the past decade, according to the newspaper.

A study involving 75 male and female gorillas of all ages - including 10 males who have not had the operation - found the castrated ones were more often tolerant of being near other gorillas than ones who had not had it.

Now some young gorillas are on so-called "castration row", awaiting a decision by scientists as to whether they will be allowed to develop into fully equipped adult males, the paper added.

There are 40 male and 60 female gorillas in British zoos.

At least one owner, the charity The Aspinall Foundation, which runs Howletts Wild Animal Park and Port Lympne Reserve, both in Kent, is against moves to castrate gorillas.

Anti-zoo campaigners have also hit out at the idea.

Dr Chris Draper, head of animal welfare and captivity at the Born Free Foundation, told Sky News: "It's a classic example of making the animal fit the environment rather than the other way around."


  Top                        
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:59 pm  |  Posted from: United Kingdom
  

User avatar
Egyptian Pharaoh
Egyptian Pharaoh

Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:15 am
Posts: 6001
Topics: 387
Images: 2312
Arcade Highscores: 0
Gender: Male
Location: South East UK
United Kingdom
Thanks for posting that LLL. I thought that Aspinals would probably be against the practice. They are very strong on conservation and a castrated male is effectively an animal lost. For your interest, John Aspinal, now deceased, was a London gambler with a high rolling gambling club. He made a fortune and used much of it to set up his conservation zoos. Good bloke. :up

Not a word about Lord Lucan ;)

____________________________________________
:gg:


  Top                        
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:30 am  |  Posted from: Canada
  

User avatar
Egypt4u God
Egypt4u God

Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2009 11:12 pm
Posts: 10340
Topics: 1867
Images: 1606
Arcade Highscores: 1
Gender: None specified
Location: Canada
Canada
Sorry - "Lord Lucan?" (Not making any connections)


  Top                        
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:51 am  |  Posted from: United Kingdom
  

User avatar
Egypt4u God
Egypt4u God

Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:15 am
Posts: 12173
Topics: 660
Images: 2354
Arcade Highscores: 0
Gender: Male
Location: UK
United Kingdom
He was a British Lord who (allegedly) murdered his children’s nanny supposedly in a mistaken attempt to murder his estranged wife in 1974. He fled the country(and again allegedly) with the help of some high flying influential friends, the Apinalls being amongst them. He was never ever found, but over the years there were constant reports (never proven) of him living in places such as Australia, Brazil et al. His name has become a synonym for someone who is elusive, a bit like the Scarlet Pimpernel.
Here is a Wiki link that gives more background: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bing ... l_of_Lucan

____________________________________________


  Top                        
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:11 pm  |  Posted from: Canada
  

User avatar
Egypt4u God
Egypt4u God

Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2009 11:12 pm
Posts: 10340
Topics: 1867
Images: 1606
Arcade Highscores: 1
Gender: None specified
Location: Canada
Canada
Don't believe I have ever heard of Lord Lucan but he does seem to be a rather flamboyant character. Banker and Gambler are not necessarily two words you want to hear in one sentence together. Maybe the gorilla people introduced him and he is living in costume as part of one of the clans!


  Top                        
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:03 pm  |  Posted from: United Kingdom
  

User avatar
Egyptian Pharaoh
Egyptian Pharaoh

Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:15 am
Posts: 6001
Topics: 387
Images: 2312
Arcade Highscores: 0
Gender: Male
Location: South East UK
United Kingdom
Aspinalls Howletts park have announced the birth of a female African elephant calf named Mirembe. She is the 22nd calf born at Howletts where they have a herd of 13 African elephants. That will boost their visitor numbers, everyone likes to see new arrivals, especially elephants.

____________________________________________
:gg:


  Top                        
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:51 pm  |  Posted from: Canada
  

User avatar
Egypt4u God
Egypt4u God

Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2009 11:12 pm
Posts: 10340
Topics: 1867
Images: 1606
Arcade Highscores: 1
Gender: None specified
Location: Canada
Canada
Definitely the birth of anything or anybody new brings in the crowds. Always a huge event and often here there is a naming contest whereby the public gets to suggest names.

When I was a kid we'd go to the Buffalo Zoo and even as a child I was horrified at how huge animals were kept in small cages with nothing to do, nothing natural at all. I've always been happier today at how animals are housed and the enclosures keep them closer to their natural state and am more than delighted that due to public pressure the Vancouver Aquarium (albeit the brother works there) won't be housing Killer whales or any whales there in future.

Last night it was just confirmed that Killer Whale "J50" has indeed died in the wild. Scientists have been following it for some time as they could tell it was losing weight and areas that should have had fat deposits were emaciated. They tried and I believe were successful with darting it finally with antibiotics which they hoped would help, then a theory floated it may have had worms to account for the weight loss and there was another attempt to medicate it however it has now been confirmed it has indeed died. Officials are frantic to keep the pods going and active but even when they try to dart & medicate it still means chasing & stressing the entire group. Always a difficult decision.

One theory is that the killer whales and indeed all the fish are now suffering the effect of the Fukishima nuclear power plant collapse of a few years back. It is possible as am sure radio active debris is floating about the ocean.

Still best to keep animals going in the wild as best we can IMO.


  Top                        
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:38 pm  |  Posted from: United Kingdom
  

Royal V.I.P
Royal V.I.P

Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:15 am
Posts: 1780
Topics: 54
Images: 20
Arcade Highscores: 4
Gender: None specified
Location: Luxor
Not very long ago I saw a documentary where they put a camera on the back of a nursing seal.


It was fascinating to see how she tried to avoid sharks but finally came to her feeding ground where she met up with other seals and a pod of Killer Whales - who obviously knew each other making a point of greeting - and then joined them in a fishing drive! Most unexpected. :up

____________________________________________
Smile! It confuses people


  Top                        
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 12:24 am  |  Posted from: Canada
  

User avatar
Egypt4u God
Egypt4u God

Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2009 11:12 pm
Posts: 10340
Topics: 1867
Images: 1606
Arcade Highscores: 1
Gender: None specified
Location: Canada
Canada
@MD - that would be more than fascinating IF there is a cooperative knowing of each other in the wild. Mostly I've been under the impression that a predator is a predator is a predator and they're not apt to do anything with any other wild animal than attack, kill and eat it. Always figured that orcas were like that too. Interesting re: seals.


  Top                        
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:49 am  |  Posted from: United Kingdom
  

Royal V.I.P
Royal V.I.P

Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:15 am
Posts: 1780
Topics: 54
Images: 20
Arcade Highscores: 4
Gender: None specified
Location: Luxor
Well, they are two fish predators together and the size of the shoal of fish was huge.

There is of course more than one kind of orca and the numbers in this pod were quite modest. I wonder if originally it was a case of Orcas joining seal hunts in the warmer waters of this site with fish in great abundance.

I also saw a film this week of an Orca killing, by itself, a large shark! It was seen to grab it by the body near the water surface. Then all was quiet for 15 or 20 minutes until the orca shot to the surface with the dead shark - still in the same grip. Then the other members of the group joined in tearing it apart.

It is well known that sharks become immobile if turned on their back, and also that a shark must move to breathe. This clever Orca suffocates the shark by holding it immobile on it's back until it's dead. I was impressed that the other members of the group didn't interfere with this unique killing method.

The programme said it was the first time this had been seen and filmed. Clever old Orca eh?

____________________________________________
Smile! It confuses people


  Top                        
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 12:11 pm  |  Posted from: United Kingdom
  

User avatar
Egyptian Pharaoh
Egyptian Pharaoh

Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:15 am
Posts: 6001
Topics: 387
Images: 2312
Arcade Highscores: 0
Gender: Male
Location: South East UK
United Kingdom
Mad Dilys wrote:
The programme said it was the first time this had been seen and filmed. Clever old Orca eh?

And clever old cameraman eh?
Too easy to forget that to get some of the brilliant natural history video that we see on our TV's, someone has had to spend days, weeks and even months waiting for that moment. Some smaller images are 'set up' but you can't set up major action at sea, in mountains or jungle.

____________________________________________
:gg:


  Top                        
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 12:18 pm  |  Posted from: United Kingdom
  

Royal V.I.P
Royal V.I.P

Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:15 am
Posts: 1780
Topics: 54
Images: 20
Arcade Highscores: 4
Gender: None specified
Location: Luxor
I agree Grandad, the film of the seal was part of a programme about a particular backroom boy to celebrate his skills in fitting animals with cameras that give new insight into their lives. I wish I had saved the programme, I caught it halfway through. :(

____________________________________________
Smile! It confuses people


  Top                        
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 7:40 pm  |  Posted from: Canada
  

User avatar
Egypt4u God
Egypt4u God

Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2009 11:12 pm
Posts: 10340
Topics: 1867
Images: 1606
Arcade Highscores: 1
Gender: None specified
Location: Canada
Canada
I'm more than fascinated with orcas and or any group whereby the members seemingly operate as one with one brain and focus. Has almost impressed me as to how they've just learned to do this - instinct or did they learn it or ?


  Top                        
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:43 pm  |  Posted from: United Kingdom
  

Royal V.I.P
Royal V.I.P

Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:15 am
Posts: 1780
Topics: 54
Images: 20
Arcade Highscores: 4
Gender: None specified
Location: Luxor
Apparently when the Orca was killing the shark the other members of the pod stayed back until after the shark was brought inert to the surface, not rushing in as if looking and learning perhaps?

I love Orcas they are so intelligent and I feel sick at the thought of them being confined.

____________________________________________
Smile! It confuses people


  Top                        
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 1:32 am  |  Posted from: Canada
  

User avatar
Egypt4u God
Egypt4u God

Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2009 11:12 pm
Posts: 10340
Topics: 1867
Images: 1606
Arcade Highscores: 1
Gender: None specified
Location: Canada
Canada
IMO it is criminal that some were captured and held in tanks. I think even if one was sick and the only way to keep it alive was to have it in captivity I'd still want to see it being held in an inlet or some body of water that was giving it, at least, couple of miles to swim. Definitely NOT a tank where it had to 'round and 'round in a circle until it goes crazy.


  Top                        
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:45 am  |  Posted from: United Kingdom
  

Royal V.I.P
Royal V.I.P

Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:15 am
Posts: 1780
Topics: 54
Images: 20
Arcade Highscores: 4
Gender: None specified
Location: Luxor
I couldn't agree more. Animals which have been domesticated over a long time are very different from wild animals kept in confinement.

Dogs apparently have a 10,000 year start on cats when it comes to domestication and it shows. I hate Zoos unless they helping to prevent extinction and return to habitat of a species and even then their environment should reflect as far as possible their natural habitat.

____________________________________________
Smile! It confuses people


  Top                        
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:07 am  |  Posted from: United Kingdom
  

Royal V.I.P
Royal V.I.P

Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:15 am
Posts: 1780
Topics: 54
Images: 20
Arcade Highscores: 4
Gender: None specified
Location: Luxor
By the way, I think Cairo Zoo is a disgrace to the Nation, unless it has improved dramatically over the last few years. I have been there twice, the first time because I wouldn't judge it before I could see it, the second time with my step children a whole day explaining to them why it was a dreadful place.


Just one attempt at putting the animal/bird first was two enclosures which had hessian sacking attached to the sides of the cage to a height of about 2 metres. Inside were nesting wading birds - their outlines were visible through the sacking, but I couldn't identify the species. The birds however were given a respite from the crowds of people and a little privacy.

____________________________________________
Smile! It confuses people


  Top                        
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:54 am  |  Posted from: United Kingdom
  

User avatar
Egypt4u God
Egypt4u God

Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:15 am
Posts: 12173
Topics: 660
Images: 2354
Arcade Highscores: 0
Gender: Male
Location: UK
United Kingdom
There are some really good zoos in the UK, Chester zoo is second to none with dedicated breeding programs and very good conditions for the animals.

____________________________________________


  Top                        
Reply with quote  
 
Post new topic Reply to topic


Similar Topics

 Similar topics   Author   Replies   Views   Last post 
 


Who is online

Who is online Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum


cron